Head Sail Reefing - Advice sought

[ash]

I thought that we had discussed this previously – I seem to remember that C_W had chain plates rather than a bottle screw - but I can’t find it. Any pointers or advice will be gratefully received.

Mistral has hanked on headsails, a good 150% lightweight genoa, a tired 130% genoa, a tired high clewed jib, and a storm jib. She has a system to allow the headsail to be furled away for storage but not reefed – this consists of a drum which rotates the forestay and the tack, a bearing at the top of the forestay and a swivel bearing between the head and the halyard to allow rotation. I gave up using the furling system some time ago as it wasn’t reliable in strong conditions – furling away the genoa in a strong wind would wrap the bottom of the sail more tightly than normal, and would leave a bag of leach unfurled in the middle which would shake the whole rig violently.

I’ve resisted changing to furling reefing as I like the idea of having the right size and weight of sail for the conditions but this is not very easy at the top end of Loch Lomond which is subject to heavy gusts / squalls. I used to tend towards using the genoa which meant that I was over canvassed during the squalls but now I use the jib for most of the time which means that I’m often under canvassed. The crew would like to have headsail reefing as she hates me having to go to the foredeck to drop sail during very strong conditions.

I’m hoping that a well cut genoa of around 130% with a foam luff and furling reefing might allow me to quickly vary the sail area to suit the wind strength. I would also like a jib made to fit the foil so that it could be fitted prior to departure if it seemed that wind speeds were likely to be mainly high.

The boat is still afloat and the mast is still up so planning is still at the armchair stage. Pertinent information – boat design weight – 2300kgs, forestay 5mm X 9.5M approx, sail area 20 M2 approx. I would need to pay for a new forestay and genoa at the same time so it seems difficult to justify a £1,000 plus furling system on a boat with a sub £15,000 value.

A strong contender at the moment would be the Plastimo 608 at £375 though it might need an extra length of foil at £49.50 or would I be better with the Plastimo 810 at £485. Is it worthwhile paying an extra £20 or so to get a twin groove system? Flying 2 sails when downwind sounds like fun but how often would I do it and how long before I could afford the second matching sail. I take it that using the two grooves for ‘racing style’ headsail changes means that the top swivel bearing isn’t used so no furling. The disadvantage would be that the twin grooves are each 5mm whilst the single groove is 6.5mm.

The Plastimo has 2 options – turnbuckle or chain plate. As I understand it the turnbuckle option means that the forestay is fixed to the stem head by a bottle screw allowing fine adjustment of forestay length but the chain plates fitted under the drum are long so that the drum sits above the bottle screw so giving a shorter foil. The chain plate option uses the bottom holes to fit to the stem head with the bottom of the forestay fitted to one of a limited set of holes between the stem head and the drum, allowing a longer foil. Is the chain plate option strong / secure enough and is the more limited, notchy adjustment satisfactory? I have a backstay tensioner.

Another possible contender might be the Profurl C260 at £349, but it may also need an extra foil.

Any other contenders at this price range? Do any allow a bottle screw to be used up inside the drum / foil?

All advice, thoughts, experiences, criticisms are welcome.

TIA

Ash

[spuddy]

I did similar to you earlier in the year. Local reports on Jekells were good and I went with them. They use Bamar system which is moderately priced but same model had 5 years taxing service on a neighbour's boat. The genoa was 130% as Jekells said any bigger would give intolerably poor set. They also said that happily fit foam luff but they didn't think anywhere near as effective as theory would have it. Local rigger set up furling gear. Genoa looks a treat - but then a new sail always does. Delay in delivery though - did respond to some reminders and sob stories.

[spuddy]

Oh yes, fill in a form/diagram with the dims for them to tailor from. A friend had an actual Jekyll turn up to measure on site but he had a tasty old Nicholson.

[aquaplane]

"M.T. Pockets, the Jag 25 I had, was fitted with a Plastimo 608. It seemed to work OK but I would have classed it as "roller furling" rather than "roller reefing", i.e. it was all or nothing as I was never happy with it when it was part deployed.

The owner who fitted the furler used his old hank on genoa which was not a great sucess. He had sliders fitted to replace the piston hanks to attach the luff to the aluminium bit. The problem was that by the time the gubbins at the top and bottom of the forestay was fitted, the luff of the sail was 2" too long. To get any tension on the luff two of the aluminium extractions pulled apart despite the little grub screw that was supposed to hold them together. Anyroad if you have a new sail you won't have that problem.

I have never had a foam luff, I tend to reef the main and keep full genoa. If it blows any harder I roll a bit of jib in and reach or run and smile a lot, sail shape isn't that critical. If it blows any harder, then start the engine and get the sails down.

[Thistle]

I have a Plastimo 608 on a Jaguar 23. Sail made by Owens. On the whole I'm very pleased with it but you must remember to keep a little tension on the furling line the whole time or it can slip off the drum: you then need a trip to the front before you can take the sail in or out.

[Arghiro]

FWIW, I fitted a Plastimo 608 on my Westerly 25 & modified my No2 genny by removing the hanks & relacing the luff wire with a plastic luff extrusion. I also needed to replace the head cringle with a tape for a shackle. It worked well enough & saved me the cost of a new r/r genny which would have doubled the total cost.

When I bought my Pentland I did the same, this time with a 910. I didn't replace the temporarily modified jib for about 10 years when I was offered a used R/R genny with luff padding and almost new. I find the padding keeps the sail nice & flat & will sometimes put a few turns in when I want to point a bit higher.

[aquaplane]

I cured that over long luff on the genoa by having the front 6" cut off it and a bead sewn on to fit the foil like Arghiro did with his.

I had a sacraficial strip fitted at the same time. If I was going to look at the same job again I would seriously think about a brand new sail as £350 seemed quite a lot at the time. Goacher in Windermere did it.

[Nick]

.
We have an ocean spec 130% genoa from Jeckells with a foam luff. It sets well down to no. 2 jib size and is tolerable at no. 3 although you will never point as high as with a dedicated headsail. However, when you need a no.3 jib do you want to be on the foredeck? It's a trade-off I am happy to make, and nowadays I try not to go upwind in more than 20 knots unless it is absolutely essential.

It is on a Sailspar continuous line reefing system which I initially thought we would change, but once we got used to using it we have never looked back - it works really well. The huge advantage is that it is impossible to get a foul-up on the drum. I suspect that new it is much more expensive than (eg) a conventional Plastimo system, but why not ask for a quote online and report back to us?

[ash]

What a great response. My thanks to everyone.

They use Bamar system which is moderately priced

The Bamar System looks very interesting. It has its own halyard which is brought back down to the drum and the tail becomes the reefing line. I haven’t found prices yet.

"M.T. Pockets, the Jag 25 I had, was fitted with a Plastimo 608. It seemed to work OK but I would have classed it as "roller furling" rather than "roller reefing", i.e. it was all or nothing as I was never happy with it when it was part deployed.

The owner who fitted the furler used his old hank on genoa which was not a great success. He had sliders fitted to replace the piston hanks to attach the luff to the aluminium bit.

Was your unhappiness caused by the mechanics of keeeping the sail partially deployed or with the set / shape of the sail when part furled?

Solitude, my Leisure 17 has a Plastimo 406 and the genoa and jib were both sails which had been modified by removing the hanks and sewing on plastic sliders to fit the foil. All done by a previous owner and worked reasonably well.

I have a Plastimo 608 … but you must remember to keep a little tension on the furling line the whole time or it can slip off the drum: you then need a trip to the front before you can take the sail in or out.

I learnt that lesson with the Leisure. The line would get caught around the plastic flap which presses the line onto the drum.

I’m not sure if an enclosed drum is better than an open one – at least with an open drum it is easier to see and fix a problem.

They also said that happily fit foam luff but they didn't think anywhere near as effective as theory would have it.

I find the padding keeps the sail nice & flat & will sometimes put a few turns in when I want to point a bit higher.

Interesting difference of opinion – I would hope to achieve the same result as Arghiro.

.
It is on a Sailspar continuous line reefing system which I initially thought we would change, but once we got used to using it we have never looked back - it works really well. The huge advantage is that it is impossible to get a foul-up on the drum.

I like the idea of a continuous line system from an engineering point of view – a much better leverage ratio on the reefing line and also a more comfortable line to handle. Bit more involved to install with double guides and cleats but it should give the maximum length of foil of any above deck drum system.

FWIW, I fitted a Plastimo 608 on my Westerly 25............

When I bought my Pentland I did the same, this time with a 910.

How much better is the bigger unit? It seems to have different bearings and a bigger capacity drum.

Plastimo quote the 608 for the Vega. I haven't measured the forestay yet, but I would like to maximise the length of foil. I think that I might need to add a section of foil to the 608 or throw away a bit on the 910.

Is the bigger unit worth an extra 15% to 30% to do the same job?

Thanks for everyone’s help so far – keep it coming. I’ll continue investigating further. The usual boaty problem of spiralling expenditure applies – better to fit the stronger stem head fitting from VAGB whilst I’m at it, etc.

I don't think that the 130% genoa and the jib are worth spending much money on, but I would like to be able to use the 150% genoa. It will depend whether the luff will fit the foil - time to get my 30M tape out and do some measuring.

Cheers

Ash

[aquaplane]

Was your unhappiness caused by the mechanics of keeeping the sail partially deployed or with the set / shape of the sail when part furled?

From what I remember the leech and foot wrapped up fairly tight but a bag you could stick a fist in developed by about ½ wrap half way up the luff. It could have been because the sail was not designed to furl, or because it was old.

I suspect you would get a better set with partial deployment with a sail designed to do that.

I had to tweek the position of the furling line lead to make it feed into the drum better, but that was only because the instructions weren't followed properly. It's not a problem if the instructions are read.

[Silkie]

It is on a Sailspar continuous line reefing system which I initially thought we would change, but once we got used to using it we have never looked back - it works really well.

I thought you didn't like the fact that both ends of the furling line have to be cleated/uncleated and as a result your incompetent crew were always trying to furl/unfurl with one end still fast?

[Silkie]

It could have been because the sail was not designed to furl, or because it was old.

Probably a bit (or a lot) of both. As a hank-on genoa it would have been cut quite full from a lightweight cloth and would have been a delight in the light airs for which it was designed. A roller genoa is cut flatter from a heavier cloth to cope with a greater range of wind speeds and when partially furled relies heavily on the strength of the cloth for luff tension.

[Nick]

It is on a Sailspar continuous line reefing system which I initially thought we would change, but once we got used to using it we have never looked back - it works really well.

I thought you didn't like the fact that both ends of the furling line have to be cleated/uncleated and as a result your incompetent crew were always trying to furl/unfurl with one end still fast?

More flogging/training required.

If it is used correctly it never goes wrong.

[sahona]

Ash, I have the Bamar/Jeckyl setup but there was never a tiedown halliard specified, only the standard one with added pulley supplied to keep it clear of the top of the foil.
to answer the original posting, it takes a bottle screw "up the drum" . I used the original forestay, cut away a swaged loop, slipped the foil up, and fitted a norseman. Nae probs, and good sail.
Just a thought : I've seen the halliard brought down the luff from a pulley at the top of the foil, which puts the foil in compression if the luff is anywhere tight enough. The alloy extrusion will tend to 'snake' collapse around the forestay, which over the years, will cause wear and probable high rotational friction. Also, if there is a forestay failure (accelerated wear?) there will be no halliard to support the mast which is therefore more likely to fail spectacularly.
Finally, if the tiedown halliard is wire, it knocks the anodising off the foil.
Don't think for a minute that I'm biassed!!!

[ash]

If it is used correctly it never goes wrong.

How much pressure do you need to put on the 'lazy' end to stop the drum slipping inside the furling line?

Ash