Coll moorings nonsense from Neil Smith

[Burt Toast]

You seem to be missing the general thrust of my point.

Let's imagine you did something for nearly 20 years that you considered to be altruistic, and indeed for the best part it was. Not a lot of money was made out of the service you provided, just enough to pay someone to collect money for half the season, maintain a small boat and engine, have the moorings inspected, and pocket for your own time and energy a three figure amount each year, you have never had any financial support or backing from any local businesses and receive fairly frequent comments about it being a rip off because people are simply too dense to understand that 6 yacht moorings don't make enough money to build a shower block, or provide private rubbish collection or any sort of service for that matter - it's just enough to provide the moorings and that is it. Then one morning you wake someone up for fees. This individual then personally writes a letter quoting an act of parliament that is 20 years old, asking for a comprehensive set of information with threats to take your moorings over if you do not provide it. What do you do? Well you get angry for one thing, so you check the Act and you find that the words appear to indicate that this company has only partial jurisdiction over the Loch, to cover the pier where their ferries land. So, you write back, perfectly civilly, explaining this fact and you then receive a very threatening letter from a lawyer acting on behalf of this large company telling you if you don't remove the moorings then the company will have them removed and confiscate your property. They haven't even provided a reasonable explanation of why they consider the wording of the Act to be in their favour, just threatening letters. You also hear that the same approach is being taken at other mooring sites up and down the west coast, so what do you do? Give up? Let them win without some kind of fight? Why should you give in to that bullying? It would be easy to admit defeat, because it's going to cost money to defend your position, maybe money you don't have, and anyway you might lose. This is what the large company are probably relying on - you giving up. But what if you don't give up, what if you win.....maybe it will stop other action from being taken in other areas I think you have to try to set a precedent.....don't you? Do you really think CMAL should be doing this to businesses like the one servicing Tobermory and taking away people's livelihood just because 'a new management team is in place'.....

What about all the other moorings in the bay at Arinagour used by creel fishermen, no one from CMAL has contacted the owners of these moorings. if CMAL has a responsibility for safety of the whole loch why are they targeting 6 'crappy old' yacht moorings? If their remit is safety why not survey the accident waiting to happen that is the middle pier where all the yachties dinghies tie up and where the wee fishing boats try to land their catch, or why not demand documentation for the other moorings in the bay used by the local fishermen? Is this supposed to be transparent and logical? I'd like to be presented with some sound logic please....

Finally, you don't have to be a yachtie to enjoy sailing. I love racing, don't like cruising so much and before I had kids west highland week was one of my favourite ways to spend a week on the west coast. However, I enjoy lots of other things too and I'd never call myself a 'yachtie' or pretend to want to belong to the minority of yachties who walk around with their noses in the air eyeing up your clothing labels or the boat you are sailing on. Like any sport or pastime that becomes obsessive, yachties are as guilty as the next lot (and more I think) for enveloping themselves in a clique with imagined superiority. You need money to own a yacht, people with the amount of money you need to run a yacht are (forgive my generalisation) typically middle class, typically prone to snobbery and typically grotesquely aspirational in their behaviour. I'm sure die hard dungeons and dragons fans are as condescending when presented with a new wannabe wizard on their patch. You'd snigger at that. It is hilarious. It's no different from the way I snigger at yachties who behave similarly. That attitude is more abundant than you'd like to believe. I've laughed at its ridiculousness from the fringes for nearly 20 years. However, some of my favourite people own yachts, some of the best times I've had are in the cockpit of a yacht in the sun sipping a large gin and tonic, just don't ask me do it with 'yachties' please.

[ubergeekian]

Let's imagine you did something for nearly 20 years that you considered to be altruistic, and indeed for the best part it was. Not a lot of money was made out of the service you provided, just enough to pay someone to collect money for half the season, maintain a small boat and engine, have the moorings inspected, and pocket for your own time and energy a three figure amount each year...

Can you confirm that the moorings were insured?

[Nick]

Can you confirm that the moorings were insured?

Ubergeekian, if you look back to p1 of this thread you will see that a friend of ours had their yacht damaged when one of the mooorings broke. It transpired that Mr. Smith did not have any insurance, and indeed later on Mr. Toast confirms that the income Mr. Smith made from these moorings was so pitiful and his costs so high that he was unable to afford insurance - but felt it his altruistic duty to continue to provide the moorings for the 'yachties' he despises nonetheless.

THA may or may not be under threat from Calmac, I have no information at this moment in time but am trying to find out. In the meantime I would be interested to hear from Mr. Toast as to where else Calmac is threatening to take over local visitor moorings.

[marisca]

Goodness, is it really 20 years since HIE gave up the moorings? Doesn't time fly. I'm afraid, Mr Toast, that I am one who complained about £15 a night moorings. Not because there were no showers, rubbish deposit, electricity, running water, or dancing girls but 'cos £15 for a kelp festooned (near the start of the season) mooring without any indication that that was the price was more than I felt it was worth. But then I probably can't really afford a boat and certainly can't afford "labels". I have been back since and anchored happily in the sand (cheap chinese copy CQR for those who care), I have had a drink in the hotel, not a meal 'cos I tend to eat on the boat, so I add nothing to the local economy but neither do I take anything away but memories.
The part of this thread that interests me is the CMAL aspect. Like Nick I was unaware of expansionist activities, in fact it never occurred to me that the successors to Davy's navy would lay claim to anything other than their necessary but too often visually intrusive parking facilities. Perhaps Mr Toast can forgive the slights that yachties have perpetrated and try to bring us onside by giving us more information on the CMAL perspective, not because I don't believe him, but simply to dispel our ignorance - copies of their correspondence would be most helpful - then perhaps we can find common ground. Bullying behaviour doesn't usually survive public scrutiny.
On the other hand from a purely selfish view, well maintained, insured, £10/night visitors' moorings appear more attractive than the mooring I used.

[Burt Toast]

Nick you are wrongly assuming I am Neil Smith...I'm not. Mr Smith loves yachts, sailing, yachties, the whole business of it. He would never write what I have written on this forum generalising yachtie behaviour.

On the subject of THA, I know that CMAL have, for the moment anyway, backed down from earlier bold moves in these sorts of areas for now. They seem to be taking the strategy of mopping up the little people first before tackling the more difficult propositions.....maybe they will just leave sites like THA well alone, maybe they won't. They do seem to be acting rather more power crazed recently though. There must be a CMAL strategy somewhere that sanctions this activity. You would think? I wonder if it is in their Mems and Articles to provide yacht moorings though? Seems not their core business.

[Nick]

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Burt, apologies for guessing that you might be Neil. A pity he hasn't appeared to defend himself.

Thinking of other areas where Calmac and visitor moorings are in close proximity Lochmaddy springs to mind - the moorings there are right beside the linkspan. These are operated by Comhairle nan Eilean Siar though,who also operate teh visitor moorings at theother ferry terminals opf Castlebay and Lochboisedale. I can't offhand think of anywhere else. Moorings are run by the local community in many locations, often on a £10 a night / honesty box approach. On this basis 6 moorings should cover their inspection/insurance costs over a season - but probably not while providing an income for an owner and an employee.

The basis of visitor moorings on the West Coast (as opposed to marinas) has always been - in my understanding - to bring money into the local community or enterprise (in hte case of hotels etc) while hopefully covering their operating costs. I haven't been in Arinagour for some years, but when I have been there in the past have eaten in the hotel. We once hired bikes, and spent some money in the local shop.

While I appreciate that some yachts may slope off without paying via an honesty box the money lost might still be less than the cost of operating a collection service. Comhairle nan Eilean Siar don't collect on site - they rely on visitors telling them how much they owe and posting a cheque. I do not know how reliable this is, but they obviously find it more cost-effective than employing people.

Coll is not the only place where the 'honesty box' has proved less than ideal. Kilchoan has also indicated in the past that receipts are insufficient to pay insurance and servicing costs. However, not all failures to use the honesty box are deliberately dishonest - a quick overnight stop in bad weather doesn't encourage inflating a dinghy to paddle ashore and put a soggy tenner in the box. Perhaps what is needed is a campaign to encourage people to make sure they pay for faciilities they use plus some sort of central online 'honesty box' where people who for whatever reason have left without paying can make good the deficit quickly and simply via PayPal.

I would be happy to set up and administer such a system on behalf of non-commercial local moorings operators on the West Coast free of charge if it would help - but by non-commercial I mean a charge for a 15 tonne mooring with no anciliary services of no more than £10 a night - and the moorings insured and serviced properly. (CMAL need not apply).

[DaveS]

What about all the other moorings in the bay at Arinagour used by creel fishermen, no one from CMAL has contacted the owners of these moorings. if CMAL has a responsibility for safety of the whole loch why are they targeting 6 'crappy old' yacht moorings? If their remit is safety why not survey the accident waiting to happen that is the middle pier where all the yachties dinghies tie up and where the wee fishing boats try to land their catch, or why not demand documentation for the other moorings in the bay used by the local fishermen? Is this supposed to be transparent and logical? I'd like to be presented with some sound logic please....

Since nobody else has responded to this bit, maybe I can have a go?

There is a clear distinction between moorings being let out to visitors and private moorings. The visitor has to take on trust (or try to guess from any visual clues) what state the mooring is in. While there are no doubt a range of legal get-outs, the common sense basis of the contract is: "I give you the requested fee. In return I expect the mooring to hold my boat securely in anything short of a hurricane". Only the mooring operator is in a position to ensure that the moorings are fit for purpose, and I can understand why, on safety grounds, a harbour authority might wish to act if the operator is not fulfilling his side of the implied bargain.

The owner of a private mooring has both the responsibility and the ability to ensure that it remains fit for purpose - and a fairly obvious incentive to do so while his boat is of value. I would not expect a harbour authority to get involved, any more than I would expect them to check my ground tackle if I was anchored in their harbour.

(Another yottie who doesn't do labels.)

[marisca]

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However, not all failures to use the honesty box are deliberately dishonest - a quick overnight stop in bad weather doesn't encourage inflating a dinghy to paddle ashore and put a soggy tenner in the box.

Guilty as charged! 4 hours at Lamlash, about 3 hours at Craighouse, Rothesay outer harbour (no price list or honesty box), though I'm in credit with Duncan at Oban - that's this year so far. Arriving in the dark and leaving with the tide is not conducive to going ashore, no matter that guilt says I should. If I do go ashore then I do try and leave the right money, if I have it.

[Nick]

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However, not all failures to use the honesty box are deliberately dishonest - a quick overnight stop in bad weather doesn't encourage inflating a dinghy to paddle ashore and put a soggy tenner in the box.

Guilty as charged! 4 hours at Lamlash, about 3 hours at Craighouse, Rothesay outer harbour (no price list or honesty box), though I'm in credit with Duncan at Oban - that's this year so far. Arriving in the dark and leaving with the tide is not conducive to going ashore, no matter that guilt says I should. If I do go ashore then I do try and leave the right money, if I have it.

So do you think a central Paypal honesty box would be a good idea, accomnpanied by occasional proddings of the collective cruising consciousness?

[claymore]

I have a friend who owned a van and decided to diversify a bit by shifting the odd parcel. The van inevitably broke down and he couldn't afford the repairs, the company he'd contracted to to shift the parcels took him to court and he couldn't afford the fine.

I think this is a similar situation - altruism obviously ought not to be an aspiration of any "yachtie"

I'd appreciate a definitive statement describing the Essential and Desirable qualities one needs to qualify as a "yachtie"

[marisca]

So do you think a central Paypal honesty box would be a good idea, accomnpanied by occasional proddings of the collective cruising consciousness?

Well it should make assuaging the conscience easier, but then I wasnae losing sleep over my transgressions. I have been known to "borrow" non-visitor moorings for a few hours kip, always being on board, have absolutely no problem with anyone doing the same to mine and tend to regard short stays on visitor moorings in the same light. Can balance what little guilt I feel with the notion that the visitors' moorings have deprived me of the anchoring space I could have used.
Just remembered another count of an hour or so in May on a Colintraive yin while a silly 40+kts blew through.

[Drumbeat]

As someone who has used moorings all over the Clyde and West Coast over the past few years I would be more than happy to see a Paypal honesty box facility set up. We always try to pay for moorings or to spend lots in the bar or hotel that provides them, but like most people there have been times when it has not been practical to get ashore to do so. It would be great to be able to do this online. (Perhaps the moorings at Rothesay would still exist if the owners had thought of this?)

Isn't there a hotel somewhere that does this (with the threat of naming and shaming people who don't pay within two weeks?).

Simon

[Nick]

As someone who has used moorings all over the Clyde and West Coast over the past few years I would be more than happy to see a Paypal honesty box facility set up. We always try to pay for moorings or to spend lots in the bar or hotel that provides them, but like most people there have been times when it has not been practical to get ashore to do so. It would be great to be able to do this online. (Perhaps the moorings at Rothesay would still exist if the owners had thought of this?)

Isn't there a hotel somewhere that does this (with the threat of naming and shaming people who don't pay within two weeks?).

Simon

It's not that hard to do - any mooring providers interested in setting this up please get in touch. Please note that you will need to set up a PayPal account.

[Arghiro]

(snip)
I'd appreciate a definitive statement describing the Essential and Desirable qualities one needs to qualify as a "yachtie"

Well I've done my best to aspire. I have a yacht (even if it is 38 years old). I have joined an historic yacht club & bought the permit to wear my defaced Blue Ensign. But I am of working class origins (altho highly qualified in my field) and on my pension I can ill-afford to eat out or drink in pubs where prices are high. I am Grammar School educated and aquired my qualifications as a part-time mature student. I do not race - it's a damn stupid waste of time and I do not use marinas (far too pricey). I have a regional accent so could never be considered a Hooray Henry, but I am polite, well spoken & with a good vocabulary (depite the occasional outburst of Tourette's Syndrome when upset).

Does that allow me to be abused as Yottie please?

[ubergeekian]

Can you confirm that the moorings were insured?

Ubergeekian, if you look back to p1 of this thread you will see that a friend of ours had their yacht damaged when one of the mooorings broke. It transpired that Mr. Smith did not have any insurance, and indeed later on Mr. Toast confirms that the income Mr. Smith made from these moorings was so pitiful and his costs so high that he was unable to afford insurance - but felt it his altruistic duty to continue to provide the moorings for the 'yachties' he despises nonetheless.

Good grief. He must be a very brave man, or have immense confidence in the quality of his moorings.