Oh no we're not . . .I know we are meant to agree on everything, sorry.
Nationalise the RNLI?
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Nick
- Admiral of the Blue
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I don't think so . . .
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- Nick 
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Julian
acshully I think the RNLI should not be nationalised. But I do think they have no business in lifeguards nor the Thames politico position they appear to have adopted.
As an aside, I was recently searching through the RNLI website for a particular boat's name and had a hell of a time finding any info on any of the stations boats. I wrote to the RNLI and asked why the boat; the cherished boats in fact, that are the pride of many villages are getting second billing on the websites. Each stations front page has a picture of the boat house, quay HQ etc. but the vessels are buried pages in.
A nice lady wrote back and agreed with an almost oops you're right type of reply, we didn't notice that. I wonder if this is a sign that they have become more of a business than fellow seamen wanting to help other fellow seamen.
Which brings me onto another point, more and more people are questioning why the lifeboat launches to such and such, shouldn't such and such pay for a tow home etc etc ad nauseam. Often written by newbies from the city... On the boat I was on, we raised the funds as a town to buy her (which is quite common in fact) we look after her, we man her, WE decide who WE will rescue if in peril. The ethos of a local boat manned by local seafarers to rescue their mates if they get in trouble seems to be disappearing under the mountain that has become of the RNLI.
I do think the RNLI need to re-stamp what it is, not only to the coastguard who seem to think it is their get-out-of-gaol-free card but to the public as well. Too many people have no idea why the lifeboat exists and who she belongs to. Rather concerning, it seems often they need to share with the non-sea background crews why the boat is there too, remember that berk who used to write his lessons in TOP.
As an aside, I was recently searching through the RNLI website for a particular boat's name and had a hell of a time finding any info on any of the stations boats. I wrote to the RNLI and asked why the boat; the cherished boats in fact, that are the pride of many villages are getting second billing on the websites. Each stations front page has a picture of the boat house, quay HQ etc. but the vessels are buried pages in.
A nice lady wrote back and agreed with an almost oops you're right type of reply, we didn't notice that. I wonder if this is a sign that they have become more of a business than fellow seamen wanting to help other fellow seamen.
Which brings me onto another point, more and more people are questioning why the lifeboat launches to such and such, shouldn't such and such pay for a tow home etc etc ad nauseam. Often written by newbies from the city... On the boat I was on, we raised the funds as a town to buy her (which is quite common in fact) we look after her, we man her, WE decide who WE will rescue if in peril. The ethos of a local boat manned by local seafarers to rescue their mates if they get in trouble seems to be disappearing under the mountain that has become of the RNLI.
I do think the RNLI need to re-stamp what it is, not only to the coastguard who seem to think it is their get-out-of-gaol-free card but to the public as well. Too many people have no idea why the lifeboat exists and who she belongs to. Rather concerning, it seems often they need to share with the non-sea background crews why the boat is there too, remember that berk who used to write his lessons in TOP.
in the Marchioness report, a dedicated life saving service for the thames was recommended. The Port of London authorities, police, fire service, MCA & RNLI were asked to put forward proposals. None wanted it other than the RNLI who did, but not with volunteers. It had to be funded by the City of London.Julian wrote:I do think they have no business in ... the Thames politico position they appear to have adopted.
It might have been political but more likely, I would have thought, that the exposure in the centre of London would help fundraising?
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Windfinder
- Master Mariner
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:54 pm
Yes
And a further question on those lines must be to what extent can you teach seamanship by going to sea a few hours a week compared to a man who has been going to sea since his teens to earn his living all day every day.
I take nothing away from the skill and courage of the lifeboat crews but they are different from the traditional professional seamen who used to do the job.
Perhaps the management of the service has to change to reflect this. and to their credit they do seem prepared to embrace change. Certainly the technology available has changed substantially, as has the nature of the services they are called upon to deliver. When you read of some of the rescues of 50+ years ago where merchant ships stranded and sank and were overpowered by weather, where the likes of Henry Blogg drove their boats onto the decks of stranded ships to take crewmen off, it is not a thing that happens today. Don't have the numbers to hand but I guess merchant shipping is only a small proportion of the RNLI's clientele, with "leisure" boats making up a much higher proportion.
Maybe the question will have to be asked - should they start to replace the big all weather lifeboats with helicopters, perhaps backed up by cheaper less capable boats to tow in broken down yachties.
And a further question on those lines must be to what extent can you teach seamanship by going to sea a few hours a week compared to a man who has been going to sea since his teens to earn his living all day every day.
I take nothing away from the skill and courage of the lifeboat crews but they are different from the traditional professional seamen who used to do the job.
Perhaps the management of the service has to change to reflect this. and to their credit they do seem prepared to embrace change. Certainly the technology available has changed substantially, as has the nature of the services they are called upon to deliver. When you read of some of the rescues of 50+ years ago where merchant ships stranded and sank and were overpowered by weather, where the likes of Henry Blogg drove their boats onto the decks of stranded ships to take crewmen off, it is not a thing that happens today. Don't have the numbers to hand but I guess merchant shipping is only a small proportion of the RNLI's clientele, with "leisure" boats making up a much higher proportion.
Maybe the question will have to be asked - should they start to replace the big all weather lifeboats with helicopters, perhaps backed up by cheaper less capable boats to tow in broken down yachties.
Yes
And a further question on those lines must be to what extent can you teach seamanship by going to sea a few hours a week compared to a man who has been going to sea since his teens to earn his living all day every day.
I take nothing away from the skill and courage of the lifeboat crews but they are different from the traditional professional seamen who used to do the job.
Perhaps the management of the service has to change to reflect this. and to their credit they do seem prepared to embrace change. Certainly the technology available has changed substantially, as has the nature of the services they are called upon to deliver. When you read of some of the rescues of 50+ years ago where merchant ships stranded and sank and were overpowered by weather, where the likes of Henry Blogg drove their boats onto the decks of stranded ships to take crewmen off, it is not a thing that happens today. Don't have the numbers to hand but I guess merchant shipping is only a small proportion of the RNLI's clientele, with "leisure" boats making up a much higher proportion.
Maybe the question will have to be asked - should they start to replace the big all weather lifeboats with helicopters, perhaps backed up by cheaper less capable boats to tow in broken down yachties.
And a further question on those lines must be to what extent can you teach seamanship by going to sea a few hours a week compared to a man who has been going to sea since his teens to earn his living all day every day.
I take nothing away from the skill and courage of the lifeboat crews but they are different from the traditional professional seamen who used to do the job.
Perhaps the management of the service has to change to reflect this. and to their credit they do seem prepared to embrace change. Certainly the technology available has changed substantially, as has the nature of the services they are called upon to deliver. When you read of some of the rescues of 50+ years ago where merchant ships stranded and sank and were overpowered by weather, where the likes of Henry Blogg drove their boats onto the decks of stranded ships to take crewmen off, it is not a thing that happens today. Don't have the numbers to hand but I guess merchant shipping is only a small proportion of the RNLI's clientele, with "leisure" boats making up a much higher proportion.
Maybe the question will have to be asked - should they start to replace the big all weather lifeboats with helicopters, perhaps backed up by cheaper less capable boats to tow in broken down yachties.
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Windfinder
- Master Mariner
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:54 pm
Or even better stop designing and building bespoke rescue vessels and just buy off the shelf heavy weather self righting rescue vessels.Olivepage wrote:Maybe the question will have to be asked - should they start to replace the big all weather lifeboats with helicopters, perhaps backed up by cheaper less capable boats to tow in broken down yachties.
Mind you it's the RNLI's cash to do as they please with.
when you compare the costs of the SNSM (frog equivalent @ £10m annual cost with usual caveat abt dodgy french accounting) there's a huge difference even allowing for recovering costs for towing in broken down yachties.Olivepage wrote:Maybe the question will have to be asked - should they start to replace the big all weather lifeboats with helicopters, perhaps backed up by cheaper less capable boats to tow in broken down yachties.
Some part of this disparity must be the less expensive french boats.
But, I would argue that the purpose of the RNLI is to save lives and the sea temperatures around the UK are a lot colder than most of France and therefore picking said yachty out of the water in all weather quickly and with boats built for the task matters.
The state does have an interest in this in a rather oblique way. With 1m working for the NHS, million or two in other public bodies, and most on permissive pension arrangements, a death at sea of a public employee is eye-wateringly expensive - typically £1m for a 35yr old doctor - so anything the RNLI can do to prevent this happening would be ... erm .. welcome!
If I were a cynical man I might suggest that would be money well spent - but I won't.
Agree about the cold water issue, which was one reason I suggested helicopters may be the way forward - they are much faster and 1 helicopter can cover much more sea than any boat - no matter how fast.
That of course leaves the question of abandoned yachts littering the coastal waters. The RNLI aims to save lives - does it have any duty to save property?
Is there an argument that salvaging a yacht is done to prevent a second accident when someone else hits the thing.
Is saving a yacht different from saving a fishing boat - which is someone's livelihood?
Starts to get a murky when you dig a bit deeper.
I know little about the French situation other than stories of people being presented with a bill for services rendered. Which itself raises a question.
Agree about the cold water issue, which was one reason I suggested helicopters may be the way forward - they are much faster and 1 helicopter can cover much more sea than any boat - no matter how fast.
That of course leaves the question of abandoned yachts littering the coastal waters. The RNLI aims to save lives - does it have any duty to save property?
Is there an argument that salvaging a yacht is done to prevent a second accident when someone else hits the thing.
Is saving a yacht different from saving a fishing boat - which is someone's livelihood?
Starts to get a murky when you dig a bit deeper.
I know little about the French situation other than stories of people being presented with a bill for services rendered. Which itself raises a question.
If I were a marine insurer, i'd be a lot happier knowing that the RNLI will, as likely as not, tow the yacht back. My insurer, Bishop Skinner, offer a discount if the insured is a member of the RNLI.Olivepage wrote:That of course leaves the question of abandoned yachts littering the coastal waters. The RNLI aims to save lives - does it have any duty to save property?
On the other hand, whilst participating in the ill-fated UK Dart 18 catamarran championships at weymouth some years ago a storm appeared and blew over 80+ cats. The cox of the lifeboat summoned to pick us all out of the water as we were driven, generally upside down, toward France was plaintively asked by one if he'd mind towing the cat back. We're here to save lives, he said as he trundled off to pick another up ..
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Julian
The RNLI is not a business and is there to help fellow seafarers when things go wrong. Many of the crew have their own boats back in harbour and would be just as grateful to you for a tow home if things go wrong for them.Olivepage wrote:Is saving a yacht different from saving a fishing boat - which is someone's livelihood?
You just don't get it do you.
It is no different to farmers helping out fellow farmers if they suffer broken machinery or need help with a wet harvest. It is about comradeship, if you honestly believe a fisherman has more rights to rescue and help, then maybe you are in the wrong sport / hobby ??
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Windfinder
- Master Mariner
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- Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:54 pm
Julian
Have a read of Para's post
I was posing a question, and after all the title of the thread is "Rationalising The RNLI"
Unless one considers a range of options then any rationalisation or any progress is unlikely to occur.
Because it is "not a business" does not mean that it cannot operate in a businesslike manner. In fact its status as a registered charity imposes a legal requirement upon it to do exactly that.
Have a read of Para's post
I was posing a question, and after all the title of the thread is "Rationalising The RNLI"
Unless one considers a range of options then any rationalisation or any progress is unlikely to occur.
Because it is "not a business" does not mean that it cannot operate in a businesslike manner. In fact its status as a registered charity imposes a legal requirement upon it to do exactly that.
